Interview Transcript

Rob Smith: Now, as we know, very little land in England is truly wild. Humans have been farming and altering pretty much every last yard of it ever since the ice sheets melted away some twelve thousand years ago. But the choices that we make in how we manage the land has a huge impact on the wildlife that can thrive.

Scotney Castle is a place that demonstrates that as well as anywhere. The National Trust manages its 780 acres of land near Lamberhurst in West Kent, some 30 acres of which are covered with formal gardens, while the rest is made up of grazing land and woodland, and nearly 300 acres of that is designated as a SSSI, a Site of Special Scientific Interest. Now The National Trust has to balance some quite complex things at Scotney, maintaining the listed buildings, including their ruined medieval castle, managing the land for rare and endangered species, and coping with some 180,000 visitors a year all at the same time.

Now, part of the mix this year involves having some Longhorn and Sussex cattle loaned by Kent Wildlife Trust to graze the fields and encourage more biodiversity. But as I discovered, that's far from being all that they're doing.

Rebecca Rees: The oldest part of the castle dates from around the 1300's but it has been added to over time. And then it was actually purposely ruined in the eighteen forties as part of this idea of the picturesque landscape.

Rob: What they said they deliberately took a real castle and turned it into a folly?

Rebecca: They did indeed. And and that's why you have this lovely romantic ruined also, Yeah.

Rob: Rebecca Rees is the general manager at Scotney.

Rebecca: The idea of this, so Scotney is one of the most important examples of what we call the picturesque landscape, the picturesque landscape. It's all about creating almost a painting in the landscape. And it's supposed to look wild and dramatic. But of course, it's really nature that has been curated, yeah, for the enjoyment of the people that live here. And it also means from the mansion itself, you create these key vistas and views wherever you look. So that's from the beautiful gardens here all the way to the Woodlands that surround the estate, creating this feeling of being within nature, being in the wild.

Rob: Yeah.

Rebecca: But also that has been purposely created

Rob: Because as we're stood here and the sun is threatening to come out was it was gonna rain a moment ago but but the sun 's starting to come out and we've got a glade of bluebells that are just thinking about starting to to do something you know a couple of minutes we've got some rhododendrons. There were magnolias. We've gone past, through in bloom. There's daffodils everywhere. It's it's bursting into spring flower everywhere,

Rebecca: Absolutely yes. And we're just starting to see the start of, as you say, the spring flowers and this is only going to increase for the next couple of months and in May, June time this garden is absolutely bursting with colour.

Rob: So given the fact that that nature is part of what you're doing as The National Trust now, I mean the The National Trust logo, logo is a is an oak leaf. So nature is absolutely baked into that all the way through in this. Have you ever you kind of changed the way that you're doing things these days to the way that maybe National Trust properties were doing stuff a few years ago?

Rebecca: So of course we've always managed our land in a sustainable way for, for many, many years. But of course, like anywhere else, we are seeing a decline in species and biodiversity in nature and we also have to face the sort of issues like anyone else that climate change is going to bring. So we're doing things like looking at our planting in the garden to see how we need to adapt to that. We're looking out towards our SSSI parkland and seeing how we can manage that more for nature. But we're also working with our farmers across the board to see how we can be more wildlife and nature friendly.

Rob: And you may hear in the background children going past, because it has to be said that Scotland is a place that you actively encourage visitors come to. So how many people actually came to Scotland Last year

Rebecca: Last year we had just over a 170,000 visitors come here

Rob: OK So if you're wanting to manage your 700 odd acres and make it nature friendly and accessible to 180-odd thousand people a year, that that takes some doing, doesn't it? Because you don't want people just trampling over all the special stuff you've got.

Rebecca: Here we have a series of waymarked paths right? And so anywhere out in the countryside we ask people, of course, to follow the countryside code and keep to the paths and keep their dogs on leads to protect the wildlife 

Rob: And you've got cattle as well. So what part of the cattle playing?

Rebecca: The cattle are really important new edition. I mean actually cattle have been here for centuries and indeed one of the Hussey family had his own breed of Sussex cattle, that he showed an agricultural shows. So working with the Kent Wildlife Trust, we've now got our own herd of Sussex 's and Longhorns, and actually their behaviour helps to encourage biodiversity. The way that they graze encourages vulnerable plants and more biodiverse plants to grow up through the ground. And that's happening all across our parklands.

Andrea Bennet: I'm Andrea Bennett. I'm the senior gardener at Scotney Castle.

Rob: So Andrea, where are we actually stood at the moment, Just describe this, what we're stood in here.

Andrea: So this is the quarry that we're standing in. And we believe it was originally A saw pit in medieval times. saw pit.

Rob: A saw pit.

Andrea: Yeah. right

Rob: OK Well, this is where they would, sawyers would have cut up trees and that kind of thing for the building, the house.

Andrea: Yeah. So obviously, we've got the older castle down the hill. So that was here in the 1300's. So, there was a lot more history to it before the house behind us was built. And then when they were building the house behind us they used stone from this quarry that was originally sort of partly quarried anyway to get the foundation stone from here. And then Edward Hussey then created this beautiful quarry garden that we are in today and there is a series of steps and cliff faces. We did have a bit of a land slip for a few years ago where quite a bit came down but we've had to sort of re re-sort of surface some areas and make sure they're safe for people to walk through.

Rob: And so we're and it is sheltered here. It's just starting to rain. I'm hoping it's not gonna rain very much but looking around. So what is it Kentish Ragstone? What's the actual stone that they they quarry here?

Andrea: It's sandstone. Yeah so and various different types of sandstone. you can see sort of behind the there it's kind of some of it looks like honeycomb, It's very soft and very sort of easily sort of corroded and other bits are quite hard and you can see certain sections sort of erode at different stages. So it kind of that again we have to sort of manage it in certain ways obviously not tread on them too much.

Rob: And I I mean I'm not a gardener. I like gardening. I like putting stuff in the ground and seeing whether it grows or not. You probably have a slightly more technical approach than that than I do. Given the the soil type and the rock here. Does that actually make a difference on how you choose to plant things?

Andrea: It does. So this is, it used to be a lot more shaded with a lot more trees and then over the years we've lost a few trees. So it was a shaded area. Now it's quite a sunny sun trap in the summer. It's very hot and dry in the summer and then also very wet in the winter. So it's a very difficult area to garden. This area. We do try to kind of manage. I mean, obviously with climate change, we are getting a lot more rainfall as today we've had quite a lot. But we are sort of trying to manage it as best we can so that we are picking plants that can adapt to those

Rob: OK And what what are the plants that you're picking then?

Andrea: So it's a mainly drought tolerant plants because the summer seems to hit our plants hardest and most of our plants if they're drought tolerant can also hopefully sort of withstand winter wet as well. We are trying to sort of doing a bit of research into what can withstand the wetter winters, but it seems to be we lose more through the drought. So we are trying to get sort of focused on drought tolerant plants.

Rob: Right. So name me some names then what's what are you working with at the moment?

Andrea: So things like salvias, like it really hot and sunny and dry down here and so down in this part here we have some Willow gentians which are beautiful and they kind of like it a bit more shaded, so they've survived in the sort of pockets around there. We also have a few more things like the rock rose, which is a lovely beautiful shrub that really flowers beautifully. You can get all sorts of different colours and it's a good ground cover as well. So it kind of on this sort of terrain where it's a bit difficult to to kind of get in and weed, it's quite handy to have something and at this time of year.

Rob: So we have got a few things that are in blossom already. So we've got a couple of it's a a Magnolia here. We've got some hellebores that are down here. It's a really, really vivid green. The these hellebores. is that a a a hybrid for a variety or is that a a quote natural variety

Andrea: It's a more natural one. So this isn't a a hybrid, This is a foetidus. But this one, this one, it's a it's quite, it's naturalises quite well and it does like this sort of setting as well. but yeah, compared to the hybrid ones, you do get them a lot more, a lot more colourful. This is obviously very, very green, but yeah, it's a it's a lovely one and it does seem to love it down in the quarry it's been here for years and seems to have gone with all the different changes we've had in climate.

Rob: And then also next to us we've got some sort of these camellias and rhododendron,

Andrea: Yeah, that's it. We've got lots of camellias here behind our resident ponticum, which is a bit of an invasive species and we are trying to control that as best as possible. It is obviously it was grown that sort of as a backdrop for sort of game shooting things like that in the Victorian times. So kind of a bird cover basically. And then they also used it to root stock as a rootstock for grafting on the more delicate species of rhododendrons. But then in older gardens, we found that, that root stock has taken over.

Rob: Mm-hmm.

Andrea: And the ponticum has then spread

Rob: Because this is the thing, isn't it, that the whole area of this garden, was it thirty thirty acres, something like that is actually a SSSI and you're having to manage that, that whole area as a SSSI and for nature. But obviously as a gardener, you're wanting to put it in things that are pretty and, you know, so you've constantly got things in flower and that kind of thing. So how big are conflict for you is that

Andrea: It is quite difficult. I sort of, I think we do we have done a lot more research into what we do over the years. But I think naturally this garden has always been quite a sort of a a garden for all seasons really. So I think the hardest part is when you're having borders and especially in the walled garden where you've got flowers purely for ornamental use really. But we try to combine them with more single flowers and so they are open for bees and pollinators. But there is there's quite a lot that you can get. So even dahlias, things that people see is just a very much a a cut flower that's not really for for wildlife, you can get single flowered ones which bees and butterflies absolutely love. So you can combine it. you can have the double flowered for the pretty ones but you can also have some open flowers as well to to get best of both worlds

Rob: And and are you a a naturalist as much as you are a gardener? Does it bother you?

Andrea: Absolutely. We are very much aware of everything that we sort of discover around the garden. If we find just weeding on the terraces we find glow worms. So sometimes we might kind of just sort of move them into an area where not gonna get covered on things like that but we are very much mindful of it and we love everything we find. We also always taking photos of any wildlife we find. So yeah we we are definitely gardening with nature rather than against it.

Rob: Well that's a very good thing to hear and you you so you've been head gardening here for what ten years or so?

Andrea: So I'm senior gardener for I've been up from 2019 I was senior gardener. So I started the volunteer myself and then I started

Rob: Volunteering alright OK

Andrea: So I was doing private gardening originally and but wanted to get a bit more experience with the team and just get a bit more sort of yeah more experience with machinery things like that I came here and there was a really good team that I learned from and the senior gardener who knew loads and I learned a lot from him, so gradually learnt as I went along, moved my way up through the ranks, as it were and then got to be senior gardeners.

Rob: Fantastic. How are you finding it? You enjoying it?

Andrea: I'm loving it. It's a beautiful place And like I say, it's something every day is different. It's lovely and the more we do, the more work we do here, the more there is to see. So It's a beautiful job

Rob: And it's not just day-to-day. Literally in the last few moments the Suns come out and it's turned into a completely different. It's really hot

Andrea: Every type of weather in one day and it's, yeah, it's so difficult to garden with that, but now it is. It's a lovely place and yeah, even in the rain it's a beautiful place. So yeah, it's lovely.

Rob: Away from the formal gardens, there's another seven hundred and fifty acres of land to manage, split between pasture and grazing land and ancient woodland, which is managed by Ranger, Richard Newman.

Richard Newman: This is ancient woodland, yes. And this ancient woodland is really good for dormice and they really roam throughout this woodlands here. And what's really good about this woodland is that it's one of the kind of remnants of the old ways, old Woodlands that we had in high weald. And this woodland is a kind of mixture of hornbeam and hazel. And this is kind of really rare now to find in the high weald of this kind of hornbeam and hazel mix because it's all kind of grubbed out in the 1800's, 1900's for production for sweet chestnut.

Rob: So as a Ranger what do you do in here? Do you have to do anything to manage it or do you just let it get on with it?

Richard:  We are doing quite a lot in here in the moment and we are we have a, we have a big whole sites really all our Woodlands and our site have a coppice cycle and so these ones are cut between six to twelve year cycle the hazels and the hornbeam is done on 20 year cycle. But everything is really is used on the estate making edging for the paths of the gardens, making raised beds. We also produce items for the shop as well. We also produce biomass for our own biomass here for Scotney Castle. We produce fencing materials for the National Trust in in all way down to down to Somerset and Wiltshire. So everything here is actually in the woodlands Iis used and everything from the coppice as well. and we're trying to do more of it as well.

Rob: And some of these trees, you know we're stood next to

Richard: An oak tree.

Richard: So this and it's probably looking at the girth of it,

Richard: It's about a 150-200 years old

Rob: Something like that isn't it. and it's got a huge ivy growing up the side of it there as well and it's I've, I've never seen an ivy with a a trunk quite like that. You know it's it's enormous isn't it. So parts of this are properly old. The foot of the oak tree here is completely covered in moss. So there's gonna be all sorts of interesting other things going on under the ground in terms of toadstools and mushrooms and the fungi and all that kind of stuff.

RIchard: Yeah. So we have loads of mushrooms and fungi in here. We do. None of the team is really mushroom experts but we do really do our best to identify most what we find and we do know so we we do get a good spread of mushrooms and fungi in this in this in this woodland really

Rob: And there's a big lake here. I mean I'm presuming that this is an absolute hotbed of all sorts of stuff as well in terms of wildlife we know dragonflies you. Yep you name it. Well go on you name it.

Richard: So basically what's interesting about this pond, we identified one of the emerald dragonflies in here and it's one of the few breeding sites now in Kent for this dragonfly as well and we are doing a programme of work because they also like a bit of shade but also like a bit emergent vegetation and we're trying to because of COVID we've been delayed trying to do some of the work in here. So we're trying to get back to that vegetation. We are noting the numbers are dropping but hopefully when we do the works the numbers come back up again.

Rob: So let I wanna put all of this in a bit of a a kind of a context. So, you, what what what's your background? Why is it important to you to try and protect the environment?

Richard: My background I started as a Ranger about when I was 14 and and I started actually doing helping with grazing project but also having local councils like Ranger team, the animal partnership in those days. But that kind of really got me excited doing it so, that's over, that's that's nearly over twenty nearly twenty five years ago now. And but really, what we got me excited about it was when I was a lot younger when I was seven. I was my father was working in Africa and I got to see one of the in this in this nature reserve, this game reserve, one of the last ever elephants in that area. And it sadly had died. And the Rangers there were telling us about how sad it was. The poachers have got it

Rob: And hundreds died having been killed by poachers? Right, OK

Richard: Yeh, And so it really inspired me really become a become a Ranger really because I wanted to help stop these kind of things happening and help conserve species for like my two children now so they can see in the future. Really.

Rob: So when you are here and you look around at the stuff that you're doing, do you feel you're doing a worthwhile job?

Richard: I do, yes. I always think it's amazing and not just for conservation, but to me a big part of it, if you don't know what you're managing, there's no point saving it looking after it. So I like my big part for me is actually trying to teach people why we're looking after it and also using old fashioned techniques as well. Because places I used to work in London, people don't understand the hedge laying, don't understand about coppicing. . And once you explain it and teach about it, it actually opens their eyes up to actually how the landscape is managed and how it how it is looked after. We're we're standing in colliers wood at the moment. Colliers is an old fashioned word for charcoal makers. So this chose this woodland, it has been used for hundreds of years. So that kind of teaching people about that is really up to me, really exciting,

Rob: And so part of the land because it is what 750-odd acres it is you're managing here, so you are using older fashioned techniques. You've got the Sussex cattle and the Longhorn cattle to they they've just come into kind of manage your grassland in a different way.

Richard: That's correct, yes. So, I I'm a great believer in using animals like heavy horses to do timber extraction and we also use heavy horses to help manage the meadows as well. So these using these techniques is brilliant because especially on meadow management, if you use heavy horses to cut it with the lack of compaction, the ease of tighter turning spaces with these using these animals to mow the meadows with you, you find the meadows bounce back incredibly quickly, more quickly than trying to use the tractor. Same with in forestry, some of these woodlands are such heavy clay you get easy compaction, The woodlands get churned up. But using heavy horses you can timber extract most of the time very well without any compaction, without any damage. And they can go between the stalls a lot easier than a modern tractor can.

Rob: And what does that then mean for the wildlife when you do that?

Richard: Uh the wildlife is less disturbed and also for less time as well. And also how the mowers cut as well it cuts higher when you're doing heavy cutting with heavy horses and so the animals like the shrews and the mice don't get turned into sushi.

Rob: Yeah so and and in terms of the kind of stuff that you see what kind of wildlife are you seeing here? Are you getting a greater density than you would do on any other kind of farming process?

Richard: We are. We've actually started to notice things like especially butterflies. We started to notice things like marble white coming in, purple hair streaks. So we are noticing these kind of butterflies coming in more of these butterflies coming in as well. But also we're noticing some of more of the orchids started coming up even in the woodlands where we create more light is coming in as well and displays of bluebells getting getting better every year as well.

Rob: So it's been a real step change from the way that all this land has been managed to going back say 20 years, then.

Richard: Um, I can say i'm biased cause I've been here nearly 15 years after first started working here. But it is it's been a gradual process changing it and you can't introduce it too quickly you have to do it slowly because nature doesn't like things changing too quickly. So been doing it slower way. It's been, I'm sort of to quote or misquote Isaac Newton: "I'm standing on the shoulder of giants." I'm standing on previous generations of Rangers who manage this landscape really. So I'm just carrying on their work doing it.

Rob: Many thanks to Richard Newman, Andrea Bennett and Rebecca Rees, and indeed all the team at The National Trust's. Scotney Castle